hobart everett: July 2012

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legal/copyright question... on covers Rate Topic:

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#1 ? rpludwig?

Group: Patron
Posts: 336
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LocationSanford, NC

Posted Yesterday, 02:08 PM

our local jazz group plays out occasionally, small remote venues, jazz, standards, blues...none of it original work.

1. in doing so are we infringing on original artist copyrights?
2. can we put recordings of our stuff on the band's website?
3. can we sell our cd's of such music at venues?

New to this end of it, thx in advance for your expert advice!

Ron

This post has been edited by rpludwig: Yesterday, 02:56 PM

#2 ? mcjaco?

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Posted Yesterday, 02:44 PM

I would think you could put up recordings of the stuff on the website, you just cannot charge for CD's, etc. Once you try to make money off someone's music, you open yourself up for trouble.

#3 ? xsabers?

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Posted Yesterday, 02:50 PM

Playing live is ok, if the venue is paying for the rights to have non-original music. You should ask.

Recordings on the website is not ok, unless you have permission. A pseudo work around is that YouTube can add advertizing to your video if it is designated as matching someone else's original content. Not purely legal but the artists seem to have decided that getting a bit something time thousands is more profitable than trying to plug the dyke with a never ending supply of holes. It might be that you have your video removed, but that is unlikely. If you go this route, it's always nice to link to the original artist's webpage or the official video to drive some activity their way.

Selling CD's of non-original music? Not a good idea at all, IMO. You can sometimes get permission as many covers have been recorded over the years. It may cost you though.

I'm sure others have more detailed thoughts.

#4 ? TRstix?

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Posted Yesterday, 03:05 PM

I am not an expert on this, but you can record and sell other peoples' work if you pay the appropriate fees. Look into HarryFox.com. That is an agency that handles lots of that stuff. You pay a fee for each song that you cover times the number of cds you manufacture, not sell. There are limits to recording and selling other peoples work, but I don't think there are too many. For example, if they have written it but not yet recorded it and put it up for sale, then you can't sell your version. But, I think once it has been put into circulation, you can record your version and sell it if you pay.

Xsabers is right about the fact that the venue is supposed to be paying one of the collection services like ASCAP, and BMI, so that the venue can play, by radio, cd, or live acts, non-original music.

I don't know about the web-site part. I guess it depends on if you are making money from it.

#5 ? supershifter2?

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Posted Yesterday, 03:07 PM

playing other peolpe music live is o.k.. playing other peoples music and saying you wrote it is illegal. recording other peoples music and selling it without permission is illegal. recording other peoples music without permission and then saying you wrote it is illegal , check out Ray Parker Jr. I also know a couple of musicians in big name rock bands and they like for bar bands to cover their songs cause they see it as free advertisement.

This post has been edited by supershifter2: Yesterday, 03:15 PM

#6 ? TommyWells?

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Posted Yesterday, 03:23 PM

They like it when bands cover their stuff in bars, b/c they get ASCAP or BMI revenue from it.

You can cover anything you want in a live situation. The venue is responsible for performance rights to ASCAP, BMI, SESAC etc.

You can cut anything and sell it on Cd or digitally, as long as you get the license to do so and pay the mechanicals on units sold. Not a big deal.

#7 ? dcrigger?

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Posted Yesterday, 03:41 PM

View Post mcjaco, on 30 July 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I would think you could put up recordings of the stuff on the website, you just cannot charge for CD's, etc. Once you try to make money off someone's music, you open yourself up for trouble.

Actually it is more than a money issue - it is really about distributing copies - thus the name - copyright. You have to pay for the right to distribute "copies" of a work, whether you charge for them or not.

#8 ? dcrigger?

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Posted Yesterday, 04:01 PM

View Post xsabers, on 30 July 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Playing live is ok, if the venue is paying for the rights to have non-original music. You should ask.

Selling CD's of non-original music? Not a good idea at all, IMO. You can sometimes get permission as many covers have been recorded over the years. It may cost you though.

I'm sure others have more detailed thoughts.

Sure selling CD's of non-original works is a fine idea - folks do it all the time at every level. And the are really no permissions to obtain - the right to copy works (songs - compositions) in this manner is a statutory right - as are the fees associated with doing it. And TRstix is absolutely right - in the USA, the place to make this happen is www.harryfox.com

These are called mechanical licenses - any one can get them and the terms are the same for all songs - a statutory rate set within the law by Congress. So what's it cost?

The statutory mechanical royalty rate for physical recordings (such as CDs) andpermanent digital downloads is: <br style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; "><br style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">9.10 Cents per copy for songs 5 minutes or less <br style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">or <br style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">1.75 Cents per minute or fraction thereof, per copy for songs over 5 minutes.

(from www.harryfox.com)

I know there's a minimum - just can't remember the details - but it is all very very much set up and doable for folks selling limited 1000 unit pressings.

As for the web videos -those licenses are all there at harry fox to check into as well. Though anyone on a small scale would be silly to not go the YouTube route first - post the video on YouTube and embed it on your site - if it all works, then you are fine and legal, if it ends up being blocked by the right's holder, then you'd have to go the harry fox route - if you believed your exposure merited it. Keeping in mind that thousands of little bands have their "un-liscensed" demo reels up on their sites. In practical application it is a big murky grey area - legal it isn't - but legally and common practice are often miles part from each other.

David

#9 ? rpludwig?

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Posted Yesterday, 04:23 PM

View Post TommyWells, on 30 July 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

They like it when bands cover their stuff in bars, b/c they get ASCAP or BMI revenue from it.

You can cover anything you want in a live situation. The venue is responsible for performance rights to ASCAP, BMI, SESAC etc.

You can cut anything and sell it on Cd or digitally, as long as you get the license to do so and pay the mechanicals on units sold. Not a big deal.

Tommy,

What's your take on posting recordings (not for sale) on a band website...I gather from xsabre it's a NO.

also, is it a default responsibility of the venue to provide and pay for blanket performance rights or does it need to be spelled out in the band's performance agreement (contract)?

Thx in advance,
Ron

This post has been edited by rpludwig: Yesterday, 04:33 PM

#10 ? Fun 2 Drum?

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Posted Yesterday, 04:40 PM

Isn't there a loophole that says you can record or perform freely if it is a parody of the song? I know Weird Al has made a nice career off of recording "parodies" of songs written by other artists. I'm pretty sure he didn't get permission for all of them. I think it was LL Cool J who got really upset (at least publicly) at him for doing one of his songs.

#11 ? Lee?

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Joined: 07-August 05

Posted Yesterday, 04:54 PM

View Post Fun 2 Drum, on 30 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Actually, I believe Weird Al did and does seek permission. Perhaps Bermuda can chime in a add his take.

#12 ? dcrigger?

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Posted Yesterday, 05:41 PM

View Post Lee, on 30 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

View Post Fun 2 Drum, on 30 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Actually, I believe Weird Al did and does seek permission. Perhaps Bermuda can chime in a add his take.

I've always heard this as well. And understandably - as I believe parodies are legally different in many, confusing ways. And getting permission for a parody, just sidesteps the possibility of lawsuits, etc later - though most of what I've read on parodies has mentioned Weird Al, stating both his habit of obtaining permission coupled with opinion that his works - being such textbook cases of parody - would be considered fair use anyway.

But back to the original question - topically covers are not parodies, they're covers. With licenses readily available though Harry Fox. Even songs like Oh, Pretty Woman - which was the subject of a huge parody case - is listed right there in HF database ready for anyone's band to cover and put on a CD.

I think it's worth pointing out to remember that songwriter's LOVE people doing covers - covers are a cornerstone of a songwriter's livelihood. Songwriters are the last people that would want roadblocks put up making it in any way difficult for people to obtain a license and as a result send them money!!

David

#13 ? Fun 2 Drum?

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Joined: 06-June 12
LocationWestern North Carolina

Posted Yesterday, 06:06 PM

I am a big fan of Weird Al and know he asks permission. I got it wrong though, it was Coolio, and not LL Cool J who got miffed due to "Amish Paradise". I guess the "cool" thing confused me. Didn't mean to make the thread go on a Weird Al tangent - he was just an example I was using to ask about rights with regard to parodies.

#14 ? supershifter2?

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Posted Yesterday, 06:36 PM

View Post Fun 2 Drum, on 30 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

there was a lawsuit some years ago by the people that own the rights to the "song pretty woman" that Roy Orbinson sang. a rap group came out with a parody called "ballheaded woman" (LOL several times over) ! the court ruled that a parody is not copyright infringement and isnt subject to copyright laws. a rap group sued Weird Al and lost after Al did a parody of their song after the rap group denied Al permission. Weird Al said he always ask permission just as a courtosy. anyone can make , record , and sell a pardoy for profit without permission from the owners of the song your pardying, as long as its a parody. iirc that also applys to movies and airplane is a parody of the movie "zero hour"(i have a copy).

#15 ? supershifter2?

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Posted Yesterday, 06:38 PM

View Post Fun 2 Drum, on 30 July 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I am a big fan of Weird Al and know he asks permission. I got it wrong though, it was Coolio, and not LL Cool J who got miffed due to "Amish Paradise".

thats the song i'm refering to in my reply above

#16 ? TommyWells?

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Posted Yesterday, 08:24 PM

If you do a parody, you still have to pay the mechanicals if you use the chord progression and melody of the original. (And get the license.)

I have done about 20 albums with Ray Stevens and also recorded with guys like Cletus T. Judd and others. If you use the song and just change the lyrics, you still have to play the mechanicals on the song. Parodies are a whole different kind of thing. The reason Al likes to ask permission, is because he is changing the lyrics to something funny, usually from something not supposed to be funny....

This post has been edited by TommyWells: Yesterday, 08:24 PM

#17 ? TommyWells?

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Posted Yesterday, 08:31 PM

rpludwig: I only post things on YouTube if they are recorded and for sale, and the licenses are paid. If you post something that is not paid for, and belongs to someone else, you are infringing on the copyright. If you are posting on your own website and nothing is for sale, I'm not sure what the deal would be. David? Do you know this one?
I've never had any reason to do that.

#18 ? Fun 2 Drum?

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Posted Yesterday, 09:31 PM

View Post TommyWells, on 30 July 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If you do a parody, you still have to pay the mechanicals if you use the chord progression and melody of the original. (And get the license.)

Thanks, Tommy - Mechanicals makes sense... I didn't even think about that.
Gary

#19 ? sniderman?

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Posted Yesterday, 11:24 PM

View Post TommyWells, on 30 July 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Hey Tommy, isn't it also true that in a case like that, the original writer(s) would also get a songwriting credit on the new work?

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